Hi forum,
Does someone know if Plone 4.3.X is compatible with Tauthon? Tauthon is a backwards-compatible fork of Python 2.7.17. It is a wanted port on FreeBSD.org and Python 2.7 is going EOL 2020.
Can Plone 4.3.X be maintained forever with Tauthon? According to the creator of Tauthon “it would be able to run most Python 3.x code in addition to running all 2.7 code”.
PyPy also does not end support for Python 2.7.
J.
I suggest you simply try it but you should be aware that with the coming Plone 6 support for Plone 4.3 will end for good.
@zopyx
Staying mainstream is easy said. Have good working Plone 4.3.X sites. Can not just upgrade them to Plone 5.2. That is not easy done. Plone.app.ldap does not even install properly. Other products are Plone 4 only. And there is a gap between EOL of Python 2.7 and the moment an upgrade to Plone 5.2 and Python 3 can be done. Furthermore: I prefer the look and feel of Plone 4.3 X. Plone 4.3.X works for me.
LTS for Plone 4.3.X and Python 2.7 is an outcome. What about a push for Tauthon becoming mainstream? Maybe Tauthon is willing to fix the prerequisite for Plone 4.3.X to make Tauthon mainstream. Tauthon is able to run most Python 3 code. So Python 3 is not needed. Tauthon is intended to be a Python 2.7 replacement so no dead end. The project looks ambitious enough to be the Python 2.7 replacement for the future. And does Tauthon not use Python-C internals? It is a fork of the original Python 2.7.
The EOL of Python 2.7 is very inconvenient. Bet I am not the only one with this issue.
"maybe" and "most of"....Plone and Zope consists of dozens of modules. In reality we have often 200-300 Python packages under the hood. There will be always something that will not work with a fork - in particular when people adding new features. Nice idea and good luck. From my prospective: wasted time and dead end. Other may have different opinion. Staying with CPython 2.7 for the time being is safer than investing in some fork that is possibly maintained only by one or a few people. The time of Python 2.7 is over and the time of Plone 4 is also over at some point. You can put both into a museum at some point. Or do you want to continue to maintain Plone 4.3 yourself in the future after its official end of lifetime?
Usually the security team tries to support as many versions back as doable with volunteer support, guaranteed are only the last two major releases. More depends on the volunteers. Anyway, possible future Python security problems are out of scope.
So, Plone is a community project. If there are people like you pushing Plone 4 and Tauthon to play with each other, why not. Just do it.
Do not expect much enthusiasm from most of the core developers. I tend to say we have enough work supporting the current version and working on the next.
What do you mean with: at some point?
When Plone 4.3 runs on Tauthon there is no end of lifetime. Then there is no need to kill a good platform that is not broken. And how much is needed to keep Plone 4.3 secure? Not much development is needed. Everything is there on pypi ore github.
Time needed to spend in staying mainstream is at the expense of sale and other activities to market Plone.
Different actors, different motivation. You can pick the task and make it work.
Python 2.7 is a legacy and Plone 4.3 is also almost a legacy.
So you want to maintain two legacies? And all legacies will break your neck at some point.
Migrating and moving on is the way to to go.
My TDE desktop is legacy. Have a legacy car. Have a legacy phone. Run my OS on a legacy laptop. I like legacy Plone. Still use Plone 4.1. And Python 2.5. I do not mind legacy. Legacy works. Lot of legacy stuff is used daily. There is no need for legacy to break necks.
Plone 4.3 is legacy because Python 2.7 is legacy. For my Plone 4.3 sites is no need to be legacy.
You got our points of view and opinions..the rest is up to you. You heard our doubts. Good luck.
Economics and almost 30 years in IT tell me that your legacy of today is your pita of tomorrow.
But as said: it's all open source...do whatever what you want or must.
@zopyx
PyPy is also Python 2.7 and will be around for ages. RedHat also offers LTS on Python 2.7. It is the choice of developers who want to develop that Python 2.7 is EOL. It has nothing to do with Python 2.7 being outdated ore bogus, ore with demand of market. Plone is not just a PHP site that can be upgraded with unpacking a zip-file. Real effort have to be put in migration. How do you sell this to customers? Plone sites sold yesterday are outdated 2020.
We did not sell any Plone 4 site since the release of Plone 5.
All these sites Plone 4 sites are 4-5 years old, often having a decade and longer Plone history.
And at some point customers will have a hard time finding providers and maintainers for their old sites.
Why because providers come and go (more go and then come) and also providers may become sick because of the burden maintaining tons of Plone legacy often grown in-house or produced by other companies that are no longer in business. Legacy to some point is risk for all customers and a customer should be aware of risks. And yes, you need to invest regularly and throw money into your setups. That's the reality.
@zopyx
In a couple of years we gone have this again with Plone 6. Ore Python 4. And than again. To me it seems less a burden as provider with tons of Plone sites to maintain legacy than to maintain the sites AND migrate every couple of years because decisions made upstream.
Have already a hard time figuring out how to maintain a bunch of Plone sites. No one wants to invest regularly and throw money into the setups. You want to invest once and be able to maintain for ages.
Gone ask the developers of Tauthon what they think about this.
It's always the same discussion with any system going from version A to version A+1 or so...always the same cost-benefit calculation.
I do not agree. Now it is unneeded hassle. Upgrading BSD/Linux systems can almost be done on the fly. Even when going from one major release to the other. I have this issue with no other application I ever used the last 20 years on BSD/Linux. Migrating from Plone 4.3 to 5.2 means that the whole setup needs to be rebuild from almost scratch. Migrating is not only updating buildouts.cfg en versions.cf. All kind of products need to be made compatible. Other products are not available on Plone 5.2. And need to be dropped from the buildout because of the EOL of Python 2.7. Wherefor? Plone 4.3.19 is just a month old? It is amazing. Can do everything I want with Plone 4.3. With Plone 5.2. I have to rethink everything again. Without any effective benefit from hoster/user/maintainer point of view. Only thing that changes is the code on the file-system. And the GUI I do not like. I do not experience the added value.
EOL of Python 2.7 is not in the public interest
You got our point. If EOF of Python 2.7 is in anyone's interest or not, discuss this if necessary with the Python community. Usually I am not speaking for the Zope/Plone community but we are very happy with the Python 3 and its future. Python 2.7 is basically dead for most of us, most of us are on the move. Live with it.